Acts 20

In the later part of chapter nineteen, there was a great uproar in Ephesus, that was created by Demetrius the silversmith, who had called fellows of the same craft together and was concerned that their livelihood was in danger because Paul was leading so many people to Jesus Christ. They were saying that gods were not made with hands. These little idols of Diana that they made and sold by which they made their profit and became wealthy. People had quit buying them who had come to believe on Jesus Christ. So he created quite an uproar. He got people stirred. And they began to gather in the main theater there in Ephesus which held twenty thousand people. And they began to just chant, “Great is Diana of the Ephesians.” Finally the town clerk or the mayor got the people settled down and dismissed that uproarious assembly. And so we begin with chapter twenty.
After the uproar had ceased, (that is this great uproar there in Ephesus in the great theater) Paul called the disciples to himself, embraced them, and departed to go to Macedonia. So Paul was more or less the center of the turmoil there. It was because of Paul’s ministry. So in order to give them peace, Paul decides to head over again to Europe, to Macedonia, Philippi, Berea, Thessalonica, the churches that he had established over there in Macedonia.
2Now when he had gone over that region and encouraged them with many words, he came to Greece (coming again to Corinth) 3and stayed three months. This whole timing here is about a year of Paul’s life. All encapsulated in about two verses. So that there is much that we don’t know of Paul’s life and ministry. We are just sort of given a brief little declaration of about a year of his life. He was there for about three months.
And when the Jews plotted against him as he was about to sail to Syria, he decided to return through Macedonia. Now Paul was wanting to go to Jerusalem for the feast of Pentecost. And there were many ships, cruise ships so to speak, that would take pilgrims to Jerusalem during or for these feasts. Now the feast that took place in April, the Passover feast, it was difficult to travel on the Mediterranean in that time of the year. You could get storms. So they would always try to make the feast of Pentecost because sailing was better in June than in April. So there would be these ships that would have all of these Jews that would want to make the pilgrimage to Jerusalem for the feasts because it was required by law that they be in Jerusalem for the feasts. That they present themselves to God. If they lived a distance away they were to try to make it. Not to all three feasts but to at least one feast. Thus Jerusalem was always packed with people for the feasts, coming from all over the world to be there on these feast days. So there was a plot. They figured if Paul gets on the ship, we get out in the middle of the Mediterranean, we’ll just grab him at night, throw him overboard and nobody will know the difference. And so they were plotting to kill Paul as he was sailing back for the feast of Pentecost in Jerusalem. Paul heard about it and thus he decided to take the wiser course and to come on back on a round about way through Macedonia no down through Asia just sort of hugging the shoreline coming on around to make the feast in Jerusalem. So he decided to return through Macedonia. You don’t put yourself in deliberate jeopardy. God gave us a brain and He expects us to use it! And so if you are aware of a difficulty, a problem like that, you don’t just put yourself in deliberate jeopardy and say, okay, Lord, you take care of me. That’s not why God gave you a brain.
There were with Paul several people. 4And Sopater (who we don’t know anything about. That’s the only place that he appears in the Bible, so we don’t know anything about except that he was from Berea) of Berea accompanied him to Asia–also Aristarchus and Secundus of the Thessalonians, (Now Aristarchus appears in a couple of other places in Paul’s greeting, so he was a familiar partner with Paul) and Gaius of Derbe (Now there is another Gaius from Corinth, so we have about three Gaius’ in the Bible), and Timothy(of course he was also from the area of Derbe, Lystra and Derbe were sort of close together) , and Tychicus (Now Tychicus was from Ephesus and he carried the letters from Paul when he was in prison in Rome. He carried the two letters of Ephesians and Colossians to those churches because he was from that area. Tychicus was also with Paul on his journeys. He was a helper with Paul.) and Trophimus of Asia. 5These men, going ahead, waited for us at Troas. So they had gone ahead of Paul but the plan was that they would all meet at Troas. They probably had all of them been gathering money for the church in Jerusalem. For Paul had written ahead to the churches and had told them that they were to lay up a collection for the saints in Jerusalem. So they were probably sent to the various churches to receive from them, the offerings that had been taken up for the church in Jerusalem. We’ll all meet at Troas and then from Troas we’ll go together in a company to Jerusalem.
6But we sailed away from Philippi after the Days of Unleavened Bread, (Here again Luke joins Paul’s company. For a while Luke was not with Paul, but when Paul left Philippi or when he came to Philippi, Luke joined him again. So we sailed. A personal pronoun. Away from Philippi after the Days of Unleavened Bread. That is after the Passover and the feast of Unleavened Bread, in April.) and in five days joined them at Troas (crossing that portion of the Aegean in five days), where we stayed seven days.
7Now on the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Now this is an indication that it is possible that at early on in the Gentile church they began to meet on Sunday. The breaking of bread, the ritual of what we often call the communion service. They gathered on the first day of the week. When Paul was writing to the Corinthians (1 Cor. 16:2), he said now when you gather together on the first day of the week to break bread.
The keeping of the Sabbath, the Sabbath Day, was a covenant that God established with the nation of Israel. God established many covenants. He established a covenant with Noah. The sign of the covenant was the rainbow in the sky. I’ll not destroy the world again by flood. The sign of that covenant was God would put the rainbow in the sky. God established a covenant with Abraham. That from his seed the Messiah would come. And the sign of that covenant was circumcision. Now God established a covenant with the nation of Israel and that was the law. And the covenant was that if you will keep this law, the statutes, the commandments and all, then I will be your God and you will be My people and the sign of that covenant was the keeping of the Sabbath Day. And God said in Exodus 31: 16-17, that this would be a covenant between God and Israel, forever. But it was only was covenant with the nation of Israel. And the Gentiles are not really under that covenant. We are under a new covenant that God has established through the blood of Jesus. You remember that Jesus said when He took the cup, this is a new covenant that is in My blood, which is shed for the remission of sins. So God had established with us a new covenant through the blood of Jesus Christ. So these various covenants, but the Sabbath Day was a covenant with the nation of Israel. And I thus think that it is a mistake for some of the churches, namely the Seventh Day Adventist church, the Seventh Day Baptist church and all to insist on keeping the Sabbath Day. It’s just worshipping on Saturday. And they are sort of a law of the Sabbath. But yet the Bible says that if you keep the whole law and yet you violate in one point, you are guilty of all. And the Bible says cursed is the man who continues not in the whole law to do all that is written therein.
Now the orthodox Jews in their keeping of the Sabbath, will not drive a car on the Sabbath Day because you are kindling a fire in the cylinders. Actually you are kindling a fire the moment you turn on the ignition. That spark that goes through the car, the points are sparking. That’s kindling a fire. And the truly orthodox Jews will not drive a car, will not start a car on the Sabbath Day. They will not plug in an electrical appliance on the Sabbath Day nor will they turn the switch for an electrical appliance on the Sabbath Day. They won’t switch on the light on the Sabbath Day because that is kindling a fire. And the truly orthodox are very strict in their adherence to the Sabbath. So if you were a Seventh Day Adventist then really you shouldn’t drive to church on the Sabbath Day. Nor should you walk more than two thirds of a mile. Because if you don’t keep the whole law you are accursed. (Galations 3:10) Cursed is he that continues not in the whole law to do all that is written therein. But we do not have that legal relationship with God. Thank God I would hate to have a legal relationship with Him. I have a loving relationship with Him. God loves me and I love God and it’s a great relationship! So it would appear that early in the church they began to meet on the first day of the week. So here we find upon the first day of the week the disciples are coming together to break bread.
So Paul, ready to depart the next day, spoke to them(because he was leaving, this was his last shot with them) and continued his message until midnight. 8There were many lamps (torches or lights) in the upper room where they were gathered together. 9And in a window sat a certain young man named Eutychus, who was sinking into a deep sleep. He was overcome by sleep; and as Paul continued speaking, he fell down from the third story and was taken up dead. He was up on the third loft. You know the higher you get the hotter it is. You’ve got all of the torches that are lighting the place and the smoke of the torches and all. You can’t really blame the guy. Paul is going on preaching and you know, till midnight. And he just fell asleep. It became a deep sleep. So that he just rolled out of the window into the courtyard below. And was taken up dead. Now they have quite a wail when there is death. It is a traditional thing. A very plaintive kind of wailing that they begin. So as the women saw this young lifeless body they started wailing.
10But Paul went down, fell on him, and embracing him said, “Do not trouble yourselves, for his life is in him.” (Don’t make this big adieu. Quit your wailing here because he is still alive. His life is still in him.) 11Now when he had come up (That is he came back up to the third floor where they were meeting. He went down and laid on the kid and came back upstairs.), had broken bread and eaten, and talked a long while, even till daybreak, he departed. So he stayed up all night with the fellows. 12And they brought the young man in alive, and they were not a little comforted. I mean they were really comforted that he was still alive.
13Then we went ahead to the ship and sailed to Assos, there intending to take Paul on board; for so he had given orders, intending himself to go on foot. From Troas to Assos is thirty miles by ship. You have to go around a point there. Paul decided to walk cross country. It’s only twenty miles. So he probably wanted to be alone. He’s probably a little troubled. He wants to go Jerusalem. It’s his desire and intention and yet he is being warned by the Spirit of God that Jerusalem is not going to be a friendly place. There is going to be persecution, bonds, imprisonment, affliction. So he probably just wants some time alone. Twenty miles to walk and just to sort things out in his mind. You guys take the ship around and I’ll meet you over at Assos. So he walked that twenty miles by himself. When they came to Assos, of course they picked him up.
14And when he met us at Assos, we took him on board and came to Mitylene. 15We sailed from there, and the next day came opposite Chios. The following day we arrived at Samos and stayed at Trogyllium. The next day we came to Miletus. 16For Paul had decided to sail past Ephesus, Ephesus was sort of up the Meander River from Miletus. Miletus was on the coast line. It was some twenty eight miles from Miletus to Ephesus. So Paul didn’t want to take all the time to go up to Ephesus. Yet he wanted to meet with them. So he sent messengers to Ephesus to have the overseers of the church, the leaders of the church come to Miletus to meet him there on the coast.) so that he would not have to spend time in Asia; for he was hurrying to be at Jerusalem, if possible, on the Day of Pentecost. He’s in a hurry. He wants to get back there in time for the feast.
17From Miletus he sent to Ephesus and called for the elders of the church. 18And when they had come to him, he said to them: “You know, from the first day that I came to Asia, in what manner I always lived among you, (You know from the first day that I came, the kind of life that I have lived among you. And Paul described how he had lived.) 19serving the Lord with all humility, (What a tremendous characteristic! There does seem to be a trait that so often becomes the ear mark of a person who has been used of God of sort of getting a lofty attitude. Sort of an exalted kind of attitude where they begin to isolate themselves from people and begin to have a sense of self importance. Not with Paul. You see when God uses a person in a mighty way, there is a tendency of people who sort of exalt or elevate that person thinking they really are above the rest when indeed they are not. Because people treat them that way then they become used to being treated that way and then they begin to demand to be treated that way. And that’s really sad when a person is demanding special treatment and begins to have that feeling of self importance and greatness and all because people are treating you in a special way. Billy Graham is a prime example of what Paul is saying here. A man that has been so mightily used of God and yet I’ve never met a more humble man in all my life. He is absolutely beautiful in that humility and I just see him as just a tremendous example just like Paul, serving the Lord with all humility!) and with many tears and trials While I was there, I was warning you with tears. I would weep as I would take to you. I was going through trials. You know what I went through while I was there with you. The trials which happened to me by the plotting of the Jews; 20how I kept back nothing that was helpful, but proclaimed it to you(Paul didn’t hold back. Anything that would be beneficial or profitable to them, he shared.), and taught you publicly and from house to house, Paul’s ministry was that of living the example before them. I’ve showed you by the way I lived. I was an example. He was able to say, be you followers of me even as I also am of Jesus Christ. His life was an exemplary life. He said to Timothy be an example unto the believer. So Paul is saying how I showed you and I taught you. So the teaching is as much and people often learn more from the demonstration than they do from just the lecture type teaching. You see it lived out in a person’s life and it then becomes reality to you. You know you can espouse such lofty principles that nobody can live by them. And so as you are teaching, if you can demonstrate by your own life faith and trust in God and all, then it’s makes much greater impact on people when you are living the life that you are espousing. Paul’s preaching was both public. You remember last week that Paul was there in Ephesus in that school of Tyrannus, publicly every afternoon. And then from house to house. The house churches where he was going from different houses teaching, 21testifying to Jews, and also to Greeks, repentance toward God and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ. Repenting before God. Believing and trusting in Jesus Christ!
22And see, now I go bound in the spirit to Jerusalem, not knowing the things that will happen to me there, 23except that the Holy Spirit testifies in every city, saying that chains and tribulations await me. I don’t know, my future is sort of uncertain. All I know is that there is going to be trouble. I’m going to be arrested. There is going to be affliction and tribulation.
24But none of these things move me (That is move me from my purpose. The threat or the fear of imprisonment does not dissuade Paul from his purpose of going to Jerusalem. None of these things move me. I am determined that I’m going to go.); nor do I count my life dear to myself(Paul really wasn’t afraid of death. (Phil. 1:19-26) Paul said for me to live is Christ, and to die is gain! Not afraid to die, it is better! He said I have a desire to depart and be with Christ, which is far better. I am in a straight betwixt two. I have mixed emotion. One is that I want to die and be with Christ, which is far better, yet you still need me. And so I feel that tug of staying around so that I can help you.
You know, I think that we all probably experience these things emotionally. There are times when I would just like to die and be with the Lord and yet, you know, the family stills need me and all. So I’ve got to stick around for a while and the job isn’t yet complete. But that desire. Oh, how exciting it’s going to be to arrive in heaven and see the glorious kingdom and all. So that desire to depart is there. You see, Paul had paid a little visit to heaven. He said there was a man in Christ about fourteen years ago. And whether in the body or out of the body I don’t know, but I was taken up into heaven. And so he had no fear of death. He knew what awaited him when he died. Thus that yearning. He said, we who are in these bodies do often groan, earnestly desiring to move out of them, not to be an unembodied spirit, but to be clothed upon with that new body from heaven. Far as long as we are at home in these bodies, we are absent from the Lord! But we would choose rather that we would be absent from these bodies so we can be present with the Lord. He has the right concept heaven, having been there. He knew of what it was all about. And thus that desire to be there again. So I don’t know what waits for me, I don’t worry about it either. It’s not going to stop me from going. I don’t count my life dear to myself. Living in this body is not something that Paul said, that I’m really trying to hang on to.
But my desire is, so that I may finish my race with joy(Paul looked at life like a race. They that run in a race run all, only one receives the prize. So run that you might obtain. He said to Timothy at the end of the road (2 Tim 4:7-8), I’ve fought a good fight. I’ve finished the course. I’ve kept the faith! Paul wanted to finish that course. You see, I believe that God has a work and a plan for each of our lives. That God will preserve us until that plan is fulfilled as long as we are in the process of fulfilling that plan. I think that God will preserve us here until we have finished that which He has ordained that we should do and then He takes us home. So Paul is wanting to finish the course with joy in order that he might go on home to heaven.), and the ministry which I received from the Lord Jesus, to testify to the gospel of the grace of God. The ministry that God gave to Paul was to bear witness to people of this glorious gospel of God’s grace! Though you don’t deserve it. Though you can’t earn it! God in His grace offers to you the gift of eternal life. The forgiveness of your sins and a place with Him in heaven. There’s nothing you can do to earn that! You don’t deserve it. And yet God in His love for you and in His grace offers it to you.
There is a vast difference between justice, mercy and grace. Justice is getting what you deserve. And if it is someone else we always delight in it. So often when someone had done me wrong, I pray judgment on them. Lord, Your righteous judgment. Let it come! But when I pray for myself, I’m always asking for mercy. Have mercy upon me O Lord. For mercy is not getting what you deserve. Justice is getting what you deserve. Mercy is not getting what you deserve. But grace is one step further. It’s receiving blessings and glory that you don’t deserve. Now God delights in mercy and God delights in grace. And God sent Paul to preach this wonderful good news of God’s grace towards man. God will give to you something you could never earn! Something you don’t deserve and yet He will bestow upon you the gift of eternal life through His Son Jesus! So this ministry that Paul received from the Lord, Jesus, acknowledging that Jesus is Lord.
25And indeed, now I know that you all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, will see my face no more. I know this is the last time we’ll probably see each other. 26Therefore I testify to you this day that I am innocent of the blood of all men. It’s probably the last time that I’m going to see you guys. But I want you to make note of this. I’m pure of the blood of all men. Back in the eighteenth chapter, verse six, when Paul was in Corinth and the Jews started disputing with him and creating a big problem. Paul said your blood be upon your own heads, I’m going to the Gentiles!
God said to the prophet Ezekiel if I tell the wicked they are going to perish and you don’t warn them, then they will perish in their wickedness but their blood I will require of your hand. Paul is saying I am innocent of the blood of all men. I want you to record this. I’m pure because 27For I have not shunned to declare to you the whole counsel of God. I’ve declared to you all of God’s counsel. Thus I’m pure. It’s now your responsibility. You’ve heard all of the counsels of God. This is one reason why years ago I decided to go straight through the Bible from Genesis to Revelation. Because I go straight through the Bible from Genesis to Revelation, skipping nothing, I can say I am pure from the blood of all men because I have declared to you all the counsel of God. We haven’t skipped a single Scripture! I feel that until a pastor has taken his flock through the entire Bible, you can’t really say that. You have left out something. But having gone through now, and we are in the seventh time through, I can say “I want you to record this day, I’m pure from the blood of all men because I have declared to you all the counsel of God.”
28Therefore take heed to yourselves and to all the flock, among which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers, to shepherd (or to feed) the church of God which He purchased with His own blood. Now take heed. God has put you over His flock. See that you feed them! Jesus said to Peter, “Do you love Me?” Peter said Lord you know I love You! He said, then feed My sheep. Peter, do you love Me? Lord, you know I love You. Then tend over My little lambs. It is something that was the responsibility of the pastors, the shepherds, the overseers of the flock, to feed the flock of God. That is the primary responsibility that I have is that of feeding the flock of God! Watching over them. Taking the oversight.
The church of God which He has purchased with His own blood. Interesting statement. The church of God which He has purchased with His own blood. It shows to us that relationship of the Father and the Son. God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself. An interesting note. A child receives twenty three chromosomes from the mother and twenty three from the father. So that a child is a composite of the two. But the chromosomes that have the design and make up the blood come from the father. So Jesus born of God, the blood factor coming from those twenty three chromosomes, Paul could say, the church of God which He purchased with His own blood.
29For I know this, that after my departure savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock. There are those wolves out there. They are going to come in. They will try to devour you. They are not going to spare the flock. 30Also from among yourselves men will rise up, speaking perverse things, to draw away the disciples after themselves. One of the tragedies of the church, the wolves that come in. And they never look like wolves. Jesus said, beware they will be in sheep’s clothing. And even from within the church those who are wanting attention. Those who are wanting position. Those who are wanting power will rise up, speaking perverse things to draw people after themselves. We have had that happen here at Calvary on many occasions. Where people have come only to try and siphon off of the flock.
He said, 31Therefore watch, and remember that for three years I did not cease to warn everyone night and day with tears. They called Jeremiah the weeping prophet. Well, Paul could classify, I suppose, with that title too. Three years, night and day, he said I was warning you with tears.
32So now, brethren, I am going to be gone. I’m not going to be with you anymore. It’s probably the last time we’ll see each other so I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified. I put you in God’s hands! I know that there are wolves out there that are going to try to destroy. I know that there are those even within the flock that are going to try and gain preeminence, and sort of dominate and rule over the others so I commend you to God! I put you in God’s hands and the word of God’s grace which is able to build you up, to make you strong. And to give you this inheritance among all those who are sanctified. The inheritance of God’s people. Beloved, now are we the sons of God. It doesn’t yet appear what we are going to be, but when he appears we are going to be like Him as He is. And if we are sons, Paul says, then we are heirs. Heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ! Come ye blessed of the Father, Jesus said, and inherit the kingdom which was prepared for you from the foundations of the world! Peter said thanks be unto God who has begotten us again to a living hope by the resurrection of Jesus from the dead, to an inheritance that is incorruptible, undefiled and fades not away, eternal, reserved in heaven for you who are kept by the power of God through faith! This glorious inheritance of the saints in life, which Paul writes to the Ephesians.
Now Paul continuing to write of himself, says, 33I have coveted no one’s silver or gold or apparel. I haven’t been there to take from you. I haven’t coveted your silver or gold, your clothes, your apparel.
34Yes, you yourselves know that these hands have provided for my necessities, and for those who were with me. Paul worked as a tentmaker there in Ephesus as we mentioned in our lesson last week, where they were taking his sweatbands and putting them on the sick and they were being healed. So he was laboring with his hands in order to provide for his own needs so that he wasn’t living off the church but working in order to provide, not only for his own needs, but for those that were with him. A minister to my necessities and for those who were with me.
35I have shown you in every way, by laboring like this, that you must support the weak. In other words, I’ve again shown you and taught you, he said. I have now set the example that those who are capable, those who are strong, ought to work and help those who are incapable of working. Helping the weak, how that there should be this concern, this sharing, for those that are lacking or those that are in need. I’ve demonstrated that for you. I’ve provided for the necessities and the needs of these that were with me and thus I’ve been giving that example to you.
And remember the words of the Lord Jesus, that He said, ‘It is more blessed to give than to receive.’ ” Now if you look in the gospels for that quotation, you won’t find it. Paul is no doubt quoting Jesus, but the gospel writers did not record this. However as John said at the end of his gospel, if all of the things were written of Jesus, what He did and said, I suppose, he said, that all of the libraries in the world could not hold the books that could have been written. So there were many things that Jesus said that have not been recorded. But Paul was aware, probably heard from the other disciples, one of the teachings of Jesus was, “It is more blessed to give than it is to receive.” This is of course one of those interesting paradoxes of the Spirit laws. In the laws of the Spirit the way up is down! And they way down is up! Jesus said, he that exalts himself shall be abased. He that humbles himself shall be lifted up. So the way up is down and the way down is up! You lift up yourself and the Lord will put you down. You humble yourself and the Lord will lift you up. The way to gain is to give. Give and it shall be given unto you, measured out, pressed down, running over, shall men give unto your bosom. It is more blessed to give than it is to receive. I didn’t believe that when I was kid. But becoming a parent and now a grandparent, I can testify, it is much more blessed to give than it is to receive! Oh the blessedness of giving. Wonderful!
36 And when he had said these things, he knelt down and prayed with them all. What a sight! Can you see them there on the beach? Paul and the guys that are with him, Trophimus and all these guys as they are getting into the ship, getting ready to go. And the ship is waiting there. Here is Paul and the elders of Ephesus and these guys, they are all kneeling on the beach, there praying together. Beautiful picture, I love it! I love it.
37Then they all wept freely, and fell on Paul’s neck and kissed him, 38sorrowing most of all for the words which he spoke, that they would see his face no more. It was an emotional moment, because they were sorrowing. Most of all because of the fact that he said, you will probably never see my face again. And thus it was a very emotional moment as Paul was ministering to these elders, giving them the charge over the church. Commending the church and the people to God.
And they accompanied him to the ship. They came on out and said their good byes, as Paul left for the uncertain future of Jerusalem.
So in the next chapter we’ll find these prophesies and all, concerning the imprisonment being fulfilled as Paul gets to Jerusalem and get into all kinds of trouble when he is there. Just like the Lord warned him.

Father, we thank You again for the blessedness of Your Word. We pray Father that You will help us as Paul, to not only to teach truth but live those truths. So that others might see examples of the truth lived out. May we be, Lord, an example to the believers, in Godliness, in righteousness, in purity of thought and life. Lord, in a world that has become so wicked. A world that has lost its bearing. A world that is so immoral where wickedness in the world abounds, Lord, let us live lives of purity and holiness before You. O God, keep us pure. Unspotted from the world. Let there be no stains of the world upon us, but may we walk before You in righteousness, in truth, in holiness. In Jesus’ name. Amen.

When I think of James, the words that he said, now be you doers of the word and not hearers only, deceiving yourself. For he who hears the word, but doesn’t do it, is like unto a man who looks into a mirror. And then as soon as he walk away, he forgets what he saw. What he is saying is that when you look into a mirror, you see the truth, the wrinkles and everything else. The out of shape condition. Then as you walk away, some pretty little girl comes along and you straighten up and look your best. You forget what you saw—in the mirror. So is the man who is a hearer but not a doer. You’re just deceiving yourself, man, you don’t have it anymore! It’s not there. May God help us. Have a great week.

Transcribed from “The Word For Today”, Pastor Chuck Smith, Tape #8109